Debate puts HS2′s impact on Staffordshire under the spotlight

| November 7, 2011 | 11 Comments

By Jaimielee Rendall: Residents facing the prospect of a high speed rail line passing near their homes have been warning councillors and MPs that the proposals could blight communities in Staffordshire.

A HS2 meeting saw a panel made up of the leader of Stoke-on-Trent City Council Mohammed Pervez, Geoffrey Robinson MP, Tristram Hunt MP, leader of Staffordshire County Council Cllr Philip Atkins and Guardian columnist Julian Glover discuss the scheme, while the audience were also given the opportunity to share their views.

The HS2 debate panel

The HS2 debate panel

The £17billion project has come under heavy scrutiny since the proposals were drawn up in early 2010. Originally to be a link from London to Birmingham, new plans were published earlier this year which included a link to Manchester and Leeds, meaning the HS2 connection would pass through Staffordshire.

Rolfe Pearce, a foster carer living in Colwich admitted he had concerns about the impact the route could have on the village.

“The HS2 line is going to go right past our village,” he said. “The West Coast Main Line will be at our front door and the HS2 will be at our back door. That is going to give us 20 minutes of every single hour – throughout the night as well – of train noise.

“We have the A51 already, so we’re not saying not in our backyard, we’re just saying we haven’t got a voice.

“It’s all been about money and none of it’s been about people. Who’s going to lose out? We as a small community of 5,000 are really going to lose out if this goes ahead.”

His views were shared by Cllr Phillip Atkins who argued: “The three issues are capturing maximum economic benefit, minimising the environmental damage and to make sure that local residents’ voices are heard – that’s why having a debate like this is important because it airs out issues so that people are absolutely clear about it. We haven’t been shouting enough.

“Staffordshire lies in a unique position between three city regions – Birmingham, Manchester and the golden triangle of Derby, Nottingham and Leicester. It’s a known fact that the peripheries of a cities normally benefit economically and we need to capture that.

“We need to ensure that people have a happy life, a healthy life and that there’s a reduction in crime. That isn’t going to come from high speed rail.”

Despite the high cost, many believe that Staffordshire can benefit from HS2 – particularly in Stoke-On-Trent. In the tough economic climate the City Council hope that businesses will be encouraged to relocate to Stoke and people will be more inclined to visit.

Cllr Pervez admitted that his council did support HS2 and added: “Our target here in North Staffordshire should be to get a station here to maximise the benefits from HS2 and work with Cheshire East Council to benefit from national economic growth.

“I agree that the economy is a critical issue, but the estimated £43.7billion profit is a huge benefit compared to the £17billion net cost. The previous Labour government were in favour and so are the current government, and it’s the responsibility of the government to use the benefits on a national level.”

Julian Glover is also in support of HS2 and believes that Staffordshire should stop thinking of themselves as “second class” compared to the rest of England.

He said: “We need to take a leap of faith because transport in Britain is stuck in paralysis and it will eventually stagnate. We need to look abroad to Europe and Japan and see that Britain can benefit from high speed rail.

“We have to do something with transport and put our energies into fighting for a station in Staffordshire. Stoke and Staffordshire are not second class.”

An hour of debate from the panel was followed by questions from the audience. Although the two sides were still divided, Tristram Hunt MP believes that the event was worthwhile.

“I think there was a really interesting discussion about the pros and cons of HS2,” he explained. “There wasn’t that much movement on what the audience think, but I think in terms of the cost benefit, the environmental impact and the physical impact potentially in Staffordshire, all that was aired.

“We’ve got a period of debate next year so this is the beginning of the process.”

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  • http://www.haywood-colwich-hixon-labourparty.co.uk Rolfe Pearce

    This was a very interesting meeting which at times seemed to be full or politicians from around the county.

    This would normally be good, but in this case it became clear that the economics and the prestige of the project was clearly predudicing the debate.

    I was struck by how the main thrust of the pro arguement was it will increase prosperity in the cities connected by HS2,I suggested that if you were going to spend 34 billion to improve prosperity, then give 1 billion each to the 34 largest cities including Stoke on Trent, to spend on growth projects today, now , when we need it. I am sure that Stoke could spend this money more wisely and on projects that would leave a lasting legacy given the opportunity.

    The county council had seen the light and in a detailed and logical assessment had realised that the chance of Stoke/south cheshire getting a stop was very very unlikely. The main reason was that if you had a stop in Staffs you would loose this much trailed 20 mins time saving from Manchester to London. I was struck that Stoke Council has already given up the fight to stop the project looking it as an inevitability, this just looked like weak leadership to me but I am sure others will have a different view.

    HS1 cost 5.8 billion, we were told that it would deliver a 2:1 cost benefit. We sold this route to a canadian pension fund this year, for 2 billion less than it cost to build and any profit to be made will not not be coming back to the tax payer.

    HS2 it has been said will return a 2.3:1 cost benefit and this has not been downgraded to 0.3:1 this is the best guess and will probably make a loss to build it.

    We are cutting benefits to disabled people, cutting social housing, making millions unemployed, cuts to EMA student fee’s are increasing, the government constantly telling us that we are paying £112 million a day just in Interest on the current UK defecit.

    Where are our priorities?, do we really need a great big railway which will not benefit staffordshire one bit. We need Jobs in Stoke on Trent and Staffordshire not railways, we need investment in our current roads and infrastucture not a white elephant project which will rip through the countryside, blight lives and communities.

    Staffordshire will host all the pain for decades and have none of the gain. All of the cities which will be linked have an airport, we should be looking at an ecofriendly way of devloping our air freight and passenger structure to enure that make the best of the Future of internal and international travel. If you were in business and wanted to go to frankfurt from manchester, you could take 5 hours on HS2 or get there in just over an hour on the plane.

    No business case
    No environmental case
    No cash to pay for it
    No gain for Staffordshire

    ONLY PAIN

    please oppose this project

    Kind Regards

    Rolfe

    • Peter Davidson

      @Rolf Pearce

      I see you’re peddling the same toxic cocktail of unsubstantiated claims, half-truths, exaggerations and downright lies on this site as well?

      @Rolf Pearce: “HS1 cost 5.8 billion, we were told that it would deliver a 2:1 cost benefit. We sold this route to a canadian pension fund this year, for 2 billion less than it cost to build and any profit to be made will not not be coming back to the tax payer.”

      For the record, the HS1 line cost £5.5bn to build (it came in on time and on budget) – to date HS1 has delivered approx £20bn in economic benefits to South East England and London (source: KPMG) and £2.1bn in hard cash return for the sale of a 30year leasehold on the line, which can be re-sold again when it expires. Hardly the bleak picture of economic mismanagement and profligate waste you’ve attempted to paint, presumably because you have your own agenda – don’t suppose you live in close proximity to the proposed route by any chance?

      When will detractors stop parroting the same old mantra about 20mins (it’s actually a lot more than that anyway) timesaving – the new line is NOT primarily about time saving although it is a beneficial side effect – HS2 is about providing a long term solution to the looming capacity shortfall.

      Rail patronage is expanding exponentially year on year, at an average rate of 5%+ – the case for HS2 is predicated on a more modest 2% average yearly increase.

      There is no pot of money miraculously available by cancelling HS2 – the vast bulk of the proposed expenditure is ten or more years away so please stop trying to conflate the headline budget figure with the current period of public spending cutbacks and austerity measures – it’s deceitful and misleading but then you’re only interested in distorting public opinion by any means necessary to achieve your goal.

      Finally please stop using the phrase eco-friendly and air transport in the same sentence because as anybody will tell you they don’t belong together. Your proposal is utterly ridiculous!

      • Francis King

        If capacity is the real issue, what’s wrong with a slower 125mph line, using 125 trains from the upgrading of the Swansea-Paddington route?

      • Anne Price

        I think the tone of this reply is far too emotional and name calling. If the facts are sufficiently compelling they will speak for themselves, without trying to trash someone who is clearly going to have his life changed by the Hs2. I think all the arguments in Hs2′s favour – time saved and environmentally better than flying equally apply to improving local bus or tram services. When lots of councils subsidised bus travel in the 80s everyone used them. Services were quick, cheap (which rail fairs aren’t) and they stop people from using their own cars. If something was going to improve my life for the better – it would be spending less time in traffic.

      • http://haywoodscampaigner.blogspot.com Rolfe Pearce

        Mr Davidson,

        I have been in contact with KPMG and no such report exists that links the 20 billion benefits directly to HS2, so if you want to accuse others of peddling myths this is a good one to start with.

        HS1 sold for 2.1 billion, it cost by your figures 5.5 billion I make that a LOSS of £3.4 billion. It is great that the south east gets the benefits as usual, but ALL of us paid for this investment, and as ever not all of us are getting the benefit. It is also worth noting that we were promised a great return, which inexplicably now is going to a Canadian consortium, a real benefit to the tax payer who has funded, using public money, this boom time for business in the south east and Canada. If this was such a great idea why doen’t business stump up for it they seem to be getting the benefits, why should the tax payer be out of pocket by £3.4 billion pounds.

        Since you commented the economic situation in the UK has deteriorated even more, the so called return on HS2 has now dropped to 1:1, and it is likely to get worse. The Government and Rail track are now backing away from issuing the data on which they predicted the numbers using rail to make the justification in fact thy are refusing to release the data. I wonder why.

        We import 90% of all good in the UK by sea, upgrading 50 or 60 regional ports and providing distribution and road links providing a much needed boost to coastal towns with investment and jobs would allow freight to be taken off rail. This has not been considered, and most of the infrastructure already exists and it would not mean ripping up the countryside just so business men can get to the Euston taxi rank 20 mins earlier just to still wait for 20 mins to get a taxi. If you want to get businessmen to their meetings in London faster get batter taxi services at Euston. Taking freight off rail would immedately free up mountains of excess cpacity as these slow moving trains seriously slow up the system.
        Everyone would benefit from enhanced road networks to all of the major coastal towns, not just a few people who can afford to go on HS2, the coastal towns are always overlooked for major investments, this would reverse that. The cities which need HS2 apparently all have airports so it makes sense tohave a new london air terminal linking internal flights and opening up competition for internal airways for all the regional airports, creating more jobs and again benefiting everyone not just the few who can afford to go on HS2.

        Sorry Peter. I just think you are plain wrong

    • http://staffslive.co.uk/2011/11/07/debate-sees-hs2s-impact-on-staffordshire-put-under-the-spotlight/?replytocom=341#respond Morris

      What rubbish was that bloke from Hixon/Gr. haywood talking about, the line around his house has not yet been planned or designed, so he is just guessing the route. Building new airports at Stoke, Leeds etc is he living in a dream world, I can just see this happening, Not!! I did here laughter when he did first state this and then I did see amusement on the faces of the panel.

      I do remember the lady talking about reopening the stoke loop line, yes this would be a great idea but most of the route has been built on, with a new Tesco on the location of old Hanley station. So are we just going to demolish a new building, I think not.

      Yes a station for stoke should be built, this will depend of the proposed route but the station must be close to the centre and not just a parkway station, possibly location would be Trentham lakes or even Newcastle both have the space and suitable road networks. HS2 station will then bring the profile of stoke on Trent in the public eye and therefore investment which we need.

      • http://haywoodscampaigner.blogspot.com Rolfe Pearce

        Of course the maps have not been released, despite a freedom on information request they still refuse to release the maps even in proposal form. However we do have the last map skirting around Lichfield to go on at it connects to the west coast main line just 8 miles away from me. I know the geography very well locally and there are a number of area which the rail link cannot go, like through cannock chase which is an area of outstanding beauty and very hilly, it cannot go through the last remain UK salt marsh at Pasturefields, it cannot traverse the Blithfield resevoir, and I could go on but when you get rid of where it can’t go and already IS planned to go there are only a couple of routes possible both go right passed the village I live in. We already have the west coast main line where it splits so we uniquely get double the flow of rail traffic, and the Main A51. We will be crippled by another major route runing within yards of the villages

        • Morris

          Can you just admit that you are just guessing the route.

  • chriseaglen

    The issue is the route required to achieve for passengers, freight and local and distant users. With few potential rail corridors north and south remaining along a North South axis it is important to determine the numbers of tracks and the rail functions (passenger, freight). Having a predetermination of 250mph passenger dedication is possibly not the most useful use for the nation with few option on routes but with a desire to improve its transport links. Perhaps this project requires more focus on where the route goes and for what purposes and not just the HS2 concept which may not be optimal in 2011 and beyond.

  • http://haywoodscampaigner.blogspot.com Rolfe Pearce

    Nearly All of the major commentators have come out against HS2 for a variety of different reasons.

    The Sunday Telegraph says is the expense worth it, in the case of HS2 that is dubious. The million extra jobs that will be created is “fanciful”, and the numbers simply do not add up agrees the independant. The economic case is built upon the assumption that every moment business travellers spend on a train is wasted. Have the planners not heard of Smart Phones and laptops. The Times goes on to say that the notion that the link will narrow the North South divide, seems flawed, there are grounds for believing that instead it may suck business into the capital at the expense of the regions. The Guardian said that the tax payer should be up in arms about this scandalous waste of money which will cost the tax payer a further 1 billion pounds a year jus in interest payment on the loans to fund the construction. All that money so that a few righ business men can get to london 30 mins sooner.The planned outlay of 32 billion pounds, is gesture spending dressed up as growth, it is concorde for slow learners, a massive vanity project. The FT slammed it as a waste of money which will not ease overcrowding on the west coast main line because so few people will be able to afford to pay to go on it.

    For Staffordshire there will be no gain but “all the Pain”, the tax payers in Staffordshire alone will end up paying £612,000,000 for a railway that doesn’t even stop in staffordshire. It will rip through the beautiful countryside, 20 trains per hour mostly empty, 250 mph creating unprecedented 24 hour noise pollution, a decade of heavy construction delays and misery for many of staffordshire residents for nothing.

    Cannock have this wrong there are other option and these are not being looked at.

    See my blog for more details

  • Lesley Freeman

    My husband and I have always worked, paid taxes & voted for a Government and local MP who we thought would make the correct decisions. As it turns out we voted for weak bullies on a personal power trip who have given the go ahead for this monstrosity without thorough investigation and forward thinking. This scheme is already out of date although not as out of touch as the politicians who support it. The modern world actually laugh at the absurdity of this decision as they have the foresight to base their future business on less travel and more effective use of broadband, video and telephone conferencing.
    None of our politicians are up to speed with technology, otherwise they would not be wasting their time or valuable taxpayers money on this absurdly outdated scheme.
    I live close to Lichfield and my local MP is Michael Fabricant who sits on the fence on this issue, he and the Conservative party are certainly not worthy of future votes.
    We now need an MP who has the strength to protect our valuable heritage against both the Conservative and the Labour parties before they do any further damage as they have proved themselves to be the weakest link in this chain of catastrophic demolition and devastation of our country. If we don’t act soon we will be ruled by the strong countries of the world as our Government are too weak to protect us. Or are we already?? as there appears to be a hidden agenda for this decision.

    My husband and I are now facing the prospect of being homeless in retirement as HS2 devours the property we have worked all our lives to buy and we have been informed by a land agent there is no prospect of any compensation within our lifetime.

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